Can you explain the Azura and Mikoto pacifying magic connection? I’ve replayed Fates many times but never really put two and two together and still don’t quite understand what you mean.

In Revelation 13 Azura’s singing saps Ryoma and Xander’s will to fight in order to force them to listen to her and Corrin. It’s the same basic idea behind what we’re told of what Mikoto’s barrier around Hoshido did, and it’s a kind of magic not seen anywhere else in the series that I can think of. Since Azura has already revealed herself as a Vallite princess it suggests that Mikoto was also connected to the kingdom a good while before her origins are revealed.

agoddamn said

yeah, artbook says touma was conceived of as a “middle” kingdom between east and west, and so they based it off silk road civilization thru india and china (loulan, xian mei, longtao, etc). i will never get over the greek thing since you LITERALLY FIGHT A GIANT BUDDHA HEAD

I think of it more as an addition to what was already there than a total change. The Buddha head and Central Asian architecture is still there after all, and then there’s stuff like Azura’s vaguely Arabic dance style. In any case, Anankos’s Japanese name is Hydra, so you could make the argument that Greece was already a mild influence before localization. As for Arete, I prefer that her localized name is Greek-derived rather than Chinese-derived as originally, as between her and Mikoto she leans more toward Nohr. All in all as Greece (and Scandinavia, assuming Valla is meant to be a corruption of Valhalla) also belong to the extremely broad geographic region between Western Europe and Japan the localization preserves the sense of a middle kingdom if not all the specifics.

I Liked Fates Before It Was Cool!: Revelation Part 2

Prologue

Opening Chapters

Revelation Part 1

Chapters 13-19, in which everyone’s going to Valla even though half of them suck.

Chapter 13

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Hey look, Hoshidan scum!

Ok, meme comedy done. This is in my opinion the first really strong chapter of Revelation, with satisfying gameplay, escalation of the threat posed by Valla, and some good character development. It’s an utter tragedy that it takes place against the literal backdrop of Cyrkensia’s ruined opera house, but I can (mostly) live with the destruction of my favorite setting in Fates when it’s so effective at getting results. Azura still gets to sing here after a fashion, and although there’s no cutscene to go with it the results of this particular show do a good job of subtly foreshadowing that Azura and Mikoto use similar pacifying magic from the same source.

After Kaden and Keaton are done lampshading why the party always runs into shapeshifters in Cyrkensia, it’s time for Corrin to step between Xander and Ryoma as they left them back in Chapter 6 – at each other’s throats in a conflict ultimately engineered by Anankos. It’s a good demonstration of what the war between the two nations would look like without Corrin’s intervention, and the crown princes’ characters logically follow from their behavior as antagonists in the other routes. Xander is resolved that Corrin is a traitor and merits only death, whereas Ryoma is more hesitant to accept Corrin’s choice and, unlike in Conquest, willing to listen to their stated motivations when he’s not on the verge of death. Ryoma’s mellower outlook may be attributed, oddly enough, to the strong intimation that he’s got something going on with Scarlet, something I completely forgot about until I replayed this chapter. I don’t blame myself for doing so; in an Avatar free-for-all dating game romances between the other playable characters are naturally going to get short shrift in the story, and it doesn’t help that Birthright doesn’t suggest this relationship at all even though it’s the one route where both characters to survive to the end. And…yeah, there’s that part, but that’s for a bit later. It’s interesting to imagine how the different circumstances of Revelation could have encouraged Ryoma and Scarlet to grow closer in Revelation than they do in Birthright, though realistically it probably just boils down to Corrin not being there for most of their time together.

In any case, Ryoma shares what he knows about the Rainbow Sage – odd how the fourth person to visit the Sage is still Xander on this route when in the others it’s unsurprisingly the opposing older brother – and Corrin and co. are off to follow the path of Conquest 10 and 11. At least there’s no sequence-breaking teleport books this time.

Chapter 14

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This time I’m not focusing on the cutaway to Garon and co., because his obvious gloating has reached such alarmingly stupid levels that I have nothing more to say about it. The payoff, such as it is, to that plot thread is still a few chapters away anyway…as is the appearance of Iago and Hans, who have yet to do much of anything on this route and yet get to appear as bosses at a plot-critical moment. Boo.

Let’s talk about unit balancing instead. Elise shows up with her she’s-legal-we-swear panty shot, and one look at the stats of her and her retainers showcases another glaring problem with the gameplay of Revelation. From this point onward, there’s really no point in training any of the numerous unpromoted units the game throws at you, because there’s no time to raise them up to par unless you do a lot of grinding. This is one instance where Revelation’s similarities to FE10 are more superficial than they first appear, because 

1) when compared to just one route of Fates Radiant Dawn is a much longer game, and in fact at 43 chapters still holds the record for the longest individual story campaign in the series. Revelation’s pacing and design suffers terribly from the requirement that it cover the same number of chapters as the other routes.

2) Radiant Dawn also has a massive roster (second largest in the series behind New Mystery) with several units who come behind the level curve, but they’re spread across the course of the game rather than lumped into a span of a few chapters. Examples vary from earlygame recruits just a bit behind (Meg) to underwhelming midgame units (Kyza and Lyre) to a bonus run Est type in lategame (Pelleas). 

3) and most notably, units in FE10 are divided into separate armies with different resource pools until lategame. While the balancing between those is infamously unequal, this setup almost requires that you train more units than you’ll ultimately be sending into endgame, giving even the lesser ones a small chance to shine.

I imagine that the design philosophy behind Revelation is that the player would be expected to spend a lot of time grinding on this route to get its numerous unique supports and raise a much larger army. It seems intended for a slower pace, particularly as this also helps with building up the castle base when you’ve got duplicates of most buildings to upgrade. I still don’t care for it though, because I don’t feel like taking that extra time to raise an oversized army and because some of the recruitments continue to be unexplained in story. Why would two border guards join in the invasion of a foreign port? Revelation doesn’t know or care, but it’ll make you run your new underleveled healer to both sides of this large map to recruit them regardless. At least Elise is mounted….

Chapter 15

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Seriously, look at this. These two join in the same chapter, what the hell. This isn’t even mentioning that these are also some pretty random recruitments. Shura is awfully nonchalant on hearing that Corrin got his revenge for him, and Nyx has no more reason to be here than she did in Conquest 9. With her it really feels like the writers had a great (if highly fetishistic) concept for a character and came up with a plausible backstory only to find that there was no way to fit her into the plot, so…here she is. On a related note, Nyx is the only first generation character other than Gunter to outright not appear in one route, and at least there’s an explanation for Gunter’s absence in Birthright. Her presence really is just that random.

Before doing the write-up for this chapter I read back over what I’d written for the Sevenfold Sanctuary in the other routes. The gameplay of the Revelation iteration offers nothing really to speak of, lacking either Conquest’s class and skill-themed rooms or Birthright’s power jump. The Rainbow Sage uses an alternate old man sprite initially to make it less obvious that he’s repeating the same trick he pulled in Birthright, but his exposition at the end is worth the trolling for finally confirming that he is indeed a dragon and giving us the obligatory Fire Emblem name drop. Fates’s cosmology reveals itself to borrow mostly from Jugdral of all places, though I’ve never yet seen anyone try to piece together the scattered hints of worldbuilding to link the twelve dragons of the two settings. I’m certainly not going to attempt it, because even with divine weapons and draconic-blooded families in the mix there’s remarkably little to conclude definitively that the First Dragons of Fates are/were the dragons that appeared to Jugdral’s Crusaders. My pet theory aligns it a bit more with Tellius because of certain other observations about Fates’s setting and because something is going to have to connect the dragon laguz to the rest of the series’s lore eventually.

Chapter 16 + 17

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I’ve been pretty down on Revelation thus far, and at first I was fully prepared to rip into these two chapters in similar fashion…and then I finished playing through them and changed my mind. If I had to pick one moment from FE14 to represent in miniature the beautiful mess that is this game, with all its inventive concepts and missed potential, its stirring emotional moments and lazy copouts, I would choose these chapters. In spite of everything they nail the very best of what Fates offers on an emotional level, and as a midgame climax they land almost as well as the Branch of Fate lands as an establishing moment.

And yet there’s so much wrong with them! Hans and Iago have never been flatter or more inconsequential antagonists; note that before this point in Revelation they’ve done nothing aside from knock Gunter off a bridge and use an illusion to piss off the Wind Tribe. The Ryoma/Scarlet angle is abruptly dialed back to the friend zone, presumably to make it okay for the Avatar to bone them, while Hinoka abruptly joins in the action after having been forgotten about for eleven(!) chapters bar one throwaway mention in Chapter 13. Xander and Leo’s apparent betrayal of Nohr has little bite to it even from Iago as Garon might as well not exist by this point, and their retainers fail so hard as backup I almost always just send them to a corner to wait out the battle. Speaking of which, the trend of underleveled units reaches its zenith, here where maybe four of the eleven units obtained in these chapters can reasonably be used without grinding after this point. It’s even worse than the torrent of garbage units the Archanea games throw at you, because at least those sometimes come with nice stuff in their inventories (hence the “Free Silvers” tier jokingly used on some of the DS tier lists back when those were popular). And to cap it all off the ticking timer that’s been running from Chapter 7 up until this moment, of the skies over Hoshido and Nohr switching as the moment that the portal to Valla will close, makes no sense either (meteoro)logically or narratively except to add unneeded urgency and entice a few of the characters to the Canyon. For that matter, since Revelation appears to take place in the same time frame as the other two routes it’s baffling that this bizarre bit of worldbuilding goes unmentioned in them. Wouldn’t it be kind of a big deal for Nohr to get a normal sky every few decades, and for Hoshido to get a bad one?

But somehow despite all that when the Nohrian brothers show up in Chapter 17 and the music switches to “A Dark Fall” (quick aside, but one thing I love about Fates as a whole is its soundtrack) I fully got what the developers were going for, and to see all the royals finally interacting with each other – something sorely missing from Chapter 6, if you recall – and calling a truce to face whatever awaits them in Valla together just sealed that feeling. The Hoshidan and Nohrian contrast to these two chapters followed by a scene of Corrin’s families united for the first time really sells the main draw of Revelation, even if for some of them the buildup to that moment was rushed (Takumi, Camilla) or just not there at all (Hinoka). Yeah, it comes with the distinct aroma of Avatar-centered plotting like everything else on this route – as Ryoma actually points out in Chapter 16, funnily enough – but even though some of the particulars are undercooked and most of the circumstances are downright silly I can completely get on board with this group of people in this moment banding together to, uh, jump off a bridge before an interdimensional portal closes because the sky is changing color and…ugh, never mind.

Chapter 18

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I will say this for Valla: I really enjoy its visual style, a sort of supernaturally-ruined pastoral idyll that resembles nothing like the world above. It also helps that it’s not tied directly to any real-world cultures like Hoshido and Nohr are, and its nods to Middle Eastern, Indian, and exclusively in localization (I think?) Greek cultures come across in the series’s more typically understated fashion. Of course that otherworldly quality lends itself to more frustrating map mechanics, so it’s not entirely a positive. This one isn’t so bad provided you’re fielding a bunch of royals to activate all the Dragon Veins – and really, it’s not as though the player needs another excuse to use them to the exclusion of almost everyone else.

But of course the big moment of this chapter is Scarlet’s death. The bit with the flower is a painfully obvious hint to recall when it comes time for the reveal of her killer, but nevertheless the sequence does well despite that and some awkward staging with battle models. What doesn’t work quite as well is the reintroduction of the Ryoma/Scarlet angle just to add more punch to her death…completely ignoring the possibility that Corrin might be married to either of them (and Scarlet just undergone what had to have been one of the most hyper-accelerated pregnancies in all of fiction, if you want to be really sadistic). Because of their earlier buildup this may be the most egregious example of Fates needing to ignore its own support mechanics for the sake of the main plot. In any case, if Corrin didn’t shack up with one of them the scene after the chapter is pretty solid. I consider it comparable to Lilith’s death scenes on the other routes, since she also dies taking a hit for Corrin, but as the circumstances are less random and Scarlet actually gets most of her characterization outside DLC it’s much more effective overall.

Chapter 19

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Enter the strange child with the oversized forehead. At least it’s not immediately obvious that’s he’s evil, I guess?

It’s interesting to note that the Valla chapters are structured almost as a route unto themselves, having to establish a new set of characters previously unseen in Revelation and not seen at all in the other routes. Although in terms of gameplay they function more like an extended endgame in the vein of Radiant Dawn’s Tower of Guidance, bizarre architecture and all. I’ll be talking more about Anthony and Arete and the others later on, but I wanted to note the setup for when I talk about it in the next post. 

The intro to this chapter also delves into a bit more of Fates’s cosmology, specifically its deified dragons. Xander asks what only Iago thought to question in Conquest, namely why Garon would worship Anankos and not the Dusk Dragon, only to get the obvious but still technically necessary reveal of Garon’s true nature. I do like that the First Dragons are vague enough in their presentation that I could believe either that the Dawn and Dusk Dragons are just different interpretations of Anankos or that they’re all separate entities. As I recall however this is somewhat muted by the knowledge that the emotional payoff re: Garon is going to be rather muted when it finally happens, so this really is just more vague worldbuilding. 

Oh, right, the chapter. It’s Conquest 15 with a bigger party and entirely too many items drops on the optional path. Why the developers think the player needed so many items thrown at them in a game with no durability and a route with no shortage of funds I’ll never know.

Next time: Revelation Chapter 20 – Endgame

markoftheasphodel said

Sounds like I missed something interesting

It’s in reference to this post, in which the OP makes the highly questionable assertion that incest is presented as bad in Genealogy and good in Fates, apparently to counter people saying the reverse. Airlock and I went off for a few paragraphs each on why both those positions are incredibly suspect, because even though the presentation of incest varies from game to game none of them land strictly on one side of a good/bad moral binary. Like, yeah, Fates definitely plays more to an incest fetish (using characters who aren’t biologically related at that, so it’s more palatable for some people), but Jugdral is the setting that features inbred demigods and a star-crossed and now archetypical love affair between siblings, among other things.

It’s rather a shame that that post from a few days ago fizzled out as it did. The broad subject of why, for better or worse, FE repeatedly Goes There re: all manner of non-normative sexualities makes for a fascinating question with no definite answer. It’s definitely something worth exploring more.

But then the OP immediately killed my interest with two of my biggest pet peeves in Tumblr “discourse,” complaints that someone else’s writing is too long/complicated and emotionally manipulative non sequiturs designed to make someone feel bad for disagreeing, or even just adding a correction or other commentary. Why even bother engaging with that?

I Liked Fates Before It Was Cool!: Revelation Part 1

Prologue

Opening Chapters

Chapters 6-12, in which Corrin starts a cult.

Chapter 6

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As the iterations of Chapter 6 go this one feels lacking in emotional punch for a number of reasons. One is that, even though all the royals appear as enemies on the map, they don’t actually do anything but stand in their respective corners while Corrin, their servant, and Azura fight generic troops. Another is that only Xander and Ryoma have any lines; the younger royals don’t even get reaction shots to Corrin’s decision. I attribute this to the artificial construction of the chapter conflict, which shifts from Xander and Ryoma attacking each other to Corrin attacking the aforementioned aggressive generics as a way to get their attention. I’ll delve more into the differing reactions of the older brothers later on, but for now we’re left to begin the route on a rather awkward note.

One small additional thing I’d like to point out – and that I’d forgotten until this replay – is that Azura gets a concrete reason for deciding to follow Corrin other than the underlying reality that she’s known exactly what’s been going on this whole time. She cites her mother’s assumed love for Nohr in tandem with her sympathies for Hoshido (expressed in the shared early chapters) as reason to refuse to take sides. As everything’s about to get very weird with regard to Azura and the plot that’s a nice touch.

Chapter 7

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And here’s where it all gets weird.

Intellectually I understand that there’s meant to be a separation between how much Corrin knows and how much the player knows, particularly for this route. At the Branch of Fate the description of Revelation even warns you not to play it before the other two routes, and the clear implication is that it is a “golden ending” not just because it’s the path where most of the playable cast lives but because it’s the complete resolution to FE14 as a whole. It was even released as DLC a few weeks after the release of Birthright and Conquest, and while much of the focus in fandom was on how sketchy that a business practice that was as a narrative practice it feels both deliberate and appropriate to have Revelation follow the other two rather than treat all three as the simultaneously occurring AUs that they technically are.

But still…the exposition dump in this single chapter alone is massive, and it’s difficult to imagine a still mostly untested Corrin accepting everything that Azura tells them wholeheartedly except for the fact that the story basically forces them into trusting her rather than lashing out at Garon for killing their mother and kidnapping them as a child (Birthright) or still hoping for an explanation from the only father they’ve ever known (Conquest). I don’t really have anything to add on the content of that exposition because most of it is just the basic underlying story of all three routes. Gunter gets a bit of foreshadowing through his backstory and there’s the first mention of Revelation’s unique plot timer which is never explained well and always kind of dumb, but that’s about it for now.

On the subject of this chapter’s map, for whatever reason it puts me in mind of the first chapter of Hector Mode in FE7, where you’re given only two units – only one of whom can actually fight worth a damn – to run around a cramped map full of doors and chests. That plus a late-arriving Jagen and this game’s only instance of fog of war (sort of) is Chapter 6 of Revelation, and just as its story suggests the breakneck pace of how the entire route handles narrative so too does the gameplay suggest the tedium of many of this route’s maps, to say nothing of the glut of items and eventually units it throws at you because they felt the need to squeeze all the game content from the other routes into this one.

Chapter 8

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Chapters 8-12 rehash the early chapters of Birthright, visiting the same locations in the same order and even copying over some plot points such as Ryoma and Takumi’s disappearances (at least they don’t run off to the Bottomless Canyon for no reason in this one). Even the maps are the same in two cases, including this chapter. This is not entirely a bad thing, however; it logically follows that war breaks out between Hoshido and Nohr regardless of what path Corrin takes, and of the other two routes Birthright’s earlygame is the only one concerned with actually depicting the opening stages of that war. In Revelation Corrin and not Silas is the besieging commander of Fort Jinya, and as such the map plays in a reverse fashion to Birthright 7 and with Hoshidan enemies. Yukimura gets beaten down, Saizo shows off his penchant for explosives, and Sakura and Kaze step in to vouch for Corrin and get the Avatar cult rolling.

Because…yeah, that’s pretty much what the first half of Revelation’s story boils down to. By sheer charisma born of their status as a player self-insert Corrin convinces around three dozen people who initially branded them as a traitor to follow them in opposing an unnameable enemy by jumping off a bridge. The localized subtitle for this route is suspiciously apt in this context. It draws an instant connection to the biblical Book of Revelation, that apocalyptic allegory beloved of evangelical Protestant denominations that frequently rely on the charisma of individual preachers in the absence of the defined clerical hierarchy of other Christian churches. It’s amusing to consider Corrin stepping into this role, even as it makes Revelation the only route to lean as heavily on Avatar-centered plotting as Awakening does. Sure, the player knows that Corrin is telling the truth and that Anankos really is behind everything, but on a Watsonian level everyone’s unflagging trust in them gets increasingly questionable as the route wears on.

Chapter 9

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This is just the plot of Birthright 8 plastered over an easier version of Conquest 20′s map. There’s less gloating from Iago, and also Rinkah is here because this is Revelation where you just have to roll with the arbitrary recruitments sometimes, but that’s basically it. It’s Mr. Fuga’s Wild Ride 2.0!…or more accurately 0.5.

I do want to talk about the above interlude though. This is the first of several moments where Garon whips open his Flat Villain Handbook and follows the part about gloating loudly about his evil plan within earshot of some eventual good guys. It’s as dumb as it sounds, and while I appreciate that Anankos seems to be be aware that Corrin knows about him and is adjusting his plans accordingly the effect is ruined by this stupid setup for the Nohrian royals’ defection. As I’ll be talking about later, Revelation suffers from massive pacing issues, and the Nohrian family drama is just one of many plot threads that gets condensed to an absurd degree as a result.

Chapter 10

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I was going to make a joke about shipping it, but I’m still getting over just how big a role Gunter has in this route as a designated protagonist support/chorus character. 

Observations about crack shipping opportunities aside I loathe this chapter, and while there’s probably a few Valla maps that I blocked from my memory just because that section of Revelation is so heinous overall I remember hating this chapter and dreading having to play through it again. Slowly whacking your way through a map covered in ice to find hidden enemies (pretty much all of whom drop stuff including stat boosters, so going straight for the boss is a bad idea) is so boring, especially if you’re not running a very large team. This is just the first taste of the tedium to come, but overall it may just be the single worst map in Fates.*

Once again the story doesn’t offer much that the comparable chapters of the other routes didn’t already cover. Zola impersonates Izana, Corrin beats him down, Leo randomly shows up and kills him, Izana is weird, and Takumi is a stubborn ass until he isn’t. No time is spent explaining how Zola managed to capture Takumi and his retainers along with the entire population of Izumo, but it’s not too hard to fill in that particular blank – especially in contrast to the geographically nonsensical movements of the same characters in Birthright. I don’t really understand why Izana gets killed off telling Corrin to visit the Rainbow Sage, though. What god (who’s probably some dragon or other) demands human sacrifice for such a cryptic bit of information? Izana may not be recruitable in Revelation, but neither is Yukimura and he apparently gets through just fine. Plus, for named character deaths there’s a more significant and effective one in the midgame, so…I still don’t get it. Did someone just really want to write an Izana death scene?

*I reserve to right to declare future Revelation maps The Worst…because I know there are some that can compete for that title.

Chapter 11

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Mokushu again…whee. Instead of possessed Takumi ambushing from behind this chapter features one of those annoying “race to recruit NPCs before they get themselves killed” objectives, but aside from that and a slight change to how the Dragon Veins work it’s effectively Birthright 10.

The reason I keep bringing up how repetitive all these chapters feel is connected with a point I made near the beginning of this post, that Revelation’s narrative was plainly written to be the last story route the player experiences. This is a problem when you take the time to observe just how much of the first half of the route copies sets and plot elements of Birthright and to a lesser extent Conquest. The sense of déjà vu is unpleasantly strong in these chapters, particularly as they add nothing substantial of their own. Conquest also includes a chapter wherein Corrin teams up with Saizo to rescue Kagero from Kotaro, but it’s not only set on a different map but presents the conflict from a completely different angle to match Corrin’s allegiance in that route. Thankfully the story largely moves on from the Birthright script after this chapter as the Nohrian characters enter the picture, but I have to say earlygame Revelation does a poor job of selling its own price tag as DLC. Thus far its only innovations over the other routes have been a spoiler-laden info dump (that has yet to really affect anything, because per the terms of the curse it can’t), a pointless death scene, and the boring slog that was Chapter 10.

Chapter 12

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And here we have some of the most flagrant character compression in Revelation: Camilla’s entire Birthright arc and the plight of the Ice Tribe from Birthright 17 smashed together into one chapter for no apparent reason and no room to explore the differences that do exist. Flora doesn’t set herself on fire, Camilla’s declared motivations have more to do with Garon than her own love for Corrin, and both of them are willing to join Corrin in opposing Garon after the battle even though the two of them have vastly different opinions of the man. Good thing they took a moment to still get in some of that crucial fanservice, right?  This is a unique and well-executed chapter to play through, but the rapid fire characterization blindsides the player and makes it difficult to get invested in these characters to any significant degree.

Incidentally, while the separations between these posts have always been somewhat arbitrary, I’ll be picking up the next one with Chapter 13 because it reintroduces the only two non-Vallite characters to get anything like a full arc in Revelation. I might as well dive into the midgame on a high note.

Next time: Revelation Chapter 13 – 19

Shannan and larcei are cousins btw

Right, I always forget about Marricle. For a major blooded heir to a kingdom he has remarkably little presence in the game. The point still stands that Larcei’s predestined romances other than Seliph are all kind of weird, with her cousin and father figure on one hand and a choice of two brothers from the family occupying her kingdom who like to creep on her (who are also her cousins if you do one of Ayra’s predestined pairings) on the other.

fiction-is-not-reality:

fandomisnotyoursafespace:

thefandompolice:

thewoesofyaoi:

thefandompolice:

thewoesofyaoi:

They have us blocked but im petty so here we go 😊 .

Asking non-gay/bi men to stop portraying our romantic/sexual relationships in a fetishizing way is bad and misogynistic ? Telling yall to stop portraying elements like incest/abuse/pedophilia between two men as sexy is a bad thing ?

Do yall even hang around any gay/bi men or do yall get all your information from Tumblr? Like everyone in this thread is nasty, but lets start with anon. Anon you think its okay to generalize all gay male erotica as “big dicks, no lube, and turning straight guys gay” when 1) you aren’t even a gay man and 2) you probably eat up those boring ass johnlock fics where the word gay isn’t even mentioned. Its funny because the tone of your ask makes you sound like you know something when in reality you don’t know jack shit and need to stay in your boring whitebread straight girl lane :^) .

Now for everyone else in this hellhole of a thread. Yall non-gay/bi men don’t know the needs or the wants or the desires of mlm and need to shut the hell up and take a back seat when it comes to gay male erotica. No one is telling you to stop drawing smut or writing fanfiction. We are telling you to stop fetishizing mlm, but yall are so pretentious you can’t even see that maybe gay/bi men know more about this subject than you do. You people believe you are above homophobia and yet find media like killing stalking to be hot and sexy even though its about the torture and abuse of a gay man by a straight man. It disturbs me that the general attitude in fandoms and elsewhere sees the sexual gratification of non-gay/bi men more important than the safety and comfort of young gay minors, who often see this type of shit and become confused and misguided because of its awfully inaccurate depictions of our sexualities and relationships.

And last but not least Lmao @ 21st century whatever you are the nastiest. “Some gay men are the most misogynistic therefore I have an excuse to be homophobic and fetishize gay men and gay sex”. That’s what you sound like. Its pretentious and condescending to act like you know how our relationships work or to act like we are doing OUR OWN erotica and porn wrong. You and all the straight fangirls can go choke I don’t give a shit about homophobes, especially homophobes who think just because they aren’t a man that they can’t possibly harm gay/bi men. Bye.

– mod L

I like how some of your mods are cool and others are little psychos that tell people to choke while pissing themselves over Killing Stalking. 

Turning straight boys is one of the most common tropes in live action gay porn that get’s millions upon millions of views. You expect me to believe 

you’ve never searched for live action porn. Have you ever been on male run sex story sites for men? Because everything they said was accurate.

Like you keep calling them out of touch when they’re obviously the ones who have gone to the male run sites and stepped outside Tumblr  long enough to know what the normie gay guy is googling.

 If you think the normie gay dude cares about scientifically accurate soft and cozy  erotica lit you’re fucking hilarious and not only do I not believe you’re who you say you’re I don’t believe you have ever left Tumblr and A3O ever. I think I’m the only man I’ve ever known in real life who likes erotica lit and even I’m lukewarm on it because I’d rather just watch fucking porn.

You’re pretending there is some type of objective authentic way of writing men being together while claiming they’re the pretentious ones.

And it hasn’t escaped my notice that every anti-slash person in this discussion so far has not been a gay man and rarely even a trans man, but some form of gender special who has this weird hang up on “authentic yaoiz” that need to be textbook accurate.  Let’s never forget that fucking creep who wrote that big long anti yaoi essay chastising straight girls for neglecting to talk about anal douching. ‘Cause that’s something that I often stop the flow of a sex scene to include. /s

 Than when I called her out for the bullshit she was she just messaged my gay ass ignoring all of my criticisms and talking about anal douching some more since I offhandedly mentioned how that would quickly dry up your ass. 

Anakinsbugs post 

got passed around by everyone in your circle and 

got over 24,000 notes which is quite a lot for discourse and the whole thing was a lie.  And it was made by a creepy freak of a girl, roleplaying as a trans gay dude.

 I love how people like you both fail to read our FAQ and the post you are trying to criticize. This response is legit so stupid. Lets just break down each point you try to make.

 “Turning straight boys is the most common tropes in live action gay porn and gets millions of views”. Show me the statistics. Show me where millions of people watch porn videos about turning straight boys. Don’t make a statement claiming its reality and not have anything to actually back it up. And yes I have been on male run sex story sites for mlm and those non-gay/bi men generalizing all mlm run content as “big dicks, no lube, and turning straight boys” is not only wrong, but also homophobic as Fuck.

 “Like you keep calling them out of touch….blah blah blah (your continued nonsense)”. Yes because they are out of touch. Non-gay/bi men will never ever be in touch with gay/bi male experiences no matter how much “research ” they do. Its also really condescending for a bunch of people to try to splain some bullshit to a marginalized group of people they do not belong to. Also what the hell is “a normie gay guy” ? How does a bunch of non-gay/bi men (who most of whom are obviously cishet pieces of shit) know what the “normie gay guy” is googling ? 

  “You’re pretending there is some objective authentic way of writing men together while claiming they’re the pretentious ones”. Pretending ? Pretending what? We (us mods) and this blog have never claimed there is an authentic way to write mlm. We are only against the fetishization of mlm in the media, in fandom, and in real life. You and all your little gremlin friends would know this if yall took one moment to read our FAQ or scroll through our blog. And yes they are pretentious because they are trying to splain some nonsense to a marginalized group of people that none of them belong to in the first place. 

 “Gender special” Hmmm sounds kind of truscummy to me. If you took the time to read our FAQ you’d know that I, mod L, am a cis bi man Lol. Mod N is a gay trans man. Its actually really wild that you don’t believe any gay/bi men are against mlm fetishization. Its also really sad that you clearly hate nonbinary people :/ .

  Anyway im done. Go back to squeeing about yaoi with all your cishet friends 👋. Also don’t call me or anyone else a psycho, you bloated toadstool.

Also what the hell is “a normie gay guy” ? How does a bunch of
non-gay/bi men (who most of whom are obviously cishet pieces of shit)
know what the “normie gay guy” is googling ? 

 Porn companies collect data on terms searched on the website and terms searched by registered users who have identified their gender and sexuality. Many popular porn sites release the data annually because people think it’s interesting. 

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That’s gotta hurt.

If you’re arguing these guys are lying and out of touch it sounds like
you’ve never left Tumblr. It’s not even really them “doing research” so
much as it is leaving a super far left place obsessed with social
justice.

You
get offended because that’s not what you do and that’s not the kinda porn you
like,

but where is the lie when talking about men as a general group?

“And yes I have been on male run sex story sites for mlm and those
non-gay/bi men generalizing all mlm run content as “big dicks, no lube,
and turning straight boys” is not only wrong, but also homophobic as
Fuck.”

They’re joking about the fact that the porn written on sites like menonthenet would get these gay men yelled at if they posted it to A3O and you saw it.

The community is very uncritical so men write their fantasies freely and sometimes it’s garbage and sometimes they forget to add the lube. But no one gets shamed or yelled at or told to choke or kill themselves because being a bad writer does not warrant you a death via social justice.

The normie (average) gay dude is apparently interested in the sexual fantasy of sucking a straight dudes dick so good he changes his sexuality because those videos have millions and millions of views. Pretty problematic, ( I guess? Not really. I’m not a porn cop.) 

Kinda off topic: This whole treating gayness like it’s beyond straight peoples comprehension and their ability to write is exhausting. You guys sound like you’re playing a spy game with decoder pins and trench coasts. I’m tempted to change my icon to Cthulhu every time I see it.

What are you gonna do now start dictating to gay men we’re doing porn wrong too? 

Anyway I leave you admitting I was mistaken about something. Straight boy videos don’t get a million views, they get several million views.

Meet the straight tag.

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And that’s not really a bad thing and nothing to be ashamed of if you
weren’t so up tight and controlling of everyone problematic sexuality and porn tastes  we could all just shrug and laugh.

TWOY is profoundly dishonest, but this post is worth reblogging for the wealth of information it contains. Including the screencaps that TWOY themselves posted, all of which I endorse 100% as absolutely fucking true.

Beside the absolute gem that this whole thread is, let me introduce you to the perfect textbook reaction to when the dogma of an ideology is questioned (taken from the notes): it gets explained away as part of the ideology again 

“I wouldn’t be surprised if half of those videos were uploaded by cishet women who didn’t believe gay men could be anything but effeminate, so they call the actors “straight”, meaning “straight-acting.”

Pure anthropology, tumblr version. 

Actual (cis) gay guy chiming in on this thread to confirm that those stats about our porn habits are not at all surprising. Turning a straight guy has never been a fantasy of mine, but it’s all over the place in content made by and/or for gay/bi men. Regarding that note @fiction-is-not-reality quoted, the generally understood actual explanation for gay porn actors who are or claim to be straight/straight-acting is that it really is just acting or, as a friend of mine once joked, they really are gay-for-pay and you can tell since those guys only ever bottom. You don’t have to be hard to bottom, so it’s an easy (relatively speaking) position when you’re not sexually attracted to your partner. Also, men who identify as “masc” or “straight-acting” are extremely common on most hookup apps and a reflection of the gay/bi male community’s complicated relationship with traditional masculinity. I can’t fathom how anyone could come to the conclusion that it’s something women came up with.

And yeah, M/M erotica outside fandom spaces varies extensively in quality just like any other, and it’s often just as unrealistic as the people in the OP’s screencaps describe. Speaking as someone who enjoys non-humiliating feminization – wearing lingerie to bed, calling my ass a pussy/boypussy, pregnancy fantasies, etc. – in my own sex life I disagree that those things are inherently misogynistic, just as stuff like daddy kink and the very concept of twinks don’t actually promote incest or “pedophilia” (actually ephebophilia, but I know how Tumblr antis are). Whenever I’ve talked about M/M erotica written by women it’s never been to condemn its very existence – because without it I would have had significantly less reading material that spoke to my own sexual interests growing up, even though I wasn’t really the target audience – but rather to make suggestions based on my own experiences for people who want to write their smut more realistically. Like, yeah, sometimes there’s no lube and no prep because sex can be spontaneous like that, but unless you’re leaning on the power of narrative conservation in fiction it’s probably going to sting and it’s almost definitely going to be messy when it’s all said and done. 

Thanks for the recommendations on my last post. At the moment I’m leaning most heavily toward Diablo III, since Skyrim looks to be a massive undertaking that I doubt I’ll have time to really invest in until after the holidays (which means after Carnival for me, so March at the earliest) and I really enjoy the idea of a sort of offline single-player WoW-lite where I’d be motivated to play through multiple times with different classes and builds and such. Odyssey is still there as a safe and probably reliable option as the only bad things I’ve ever heard about it are some weird mandatory motion controls and some frustrating individual collectibles – certainly not enough to ruin my enjoyment of a game. In any case, the advantage of my birthday falling when it does is that I have an excuse for a second bout of self-gifting two months later.